On a First Name Basis
A show dedicated to telling the human side of the stories surrounding the research at Boise State University.
On a First Name Basis
Jeremy Ford: From Hoops to Hope
Education should be a doorway open to everyone who wants to walk through it. That's the guiding philosophy behind Dr. Jeremy Ford's work at Boise State University, where he's creating pathways to college for students with intellectual and developmental disabilities who have traditionally been excluded from higher education.
As a former school psychologist who found his way to academia, Ford brings a unique perspective to his role in the College of Education. "I was spending time working in schools and I didn't know all the things I needed to know to help the students and families I was working with," he explains. This drive to learn more and create bigger impact led him to develop multiple innovative programs that are transforming lives and changing what's possible in Idaho.
Ford's work inclcudes the PEERS program (Providing Exceptional Education and Raising Standards), a two-year college experience where students with intellectual disabilities earn a certificate in community and career readiness. Unlike segregated programs, PEERS students take standard university foundation courses alongside typical students and select electives based on their interests. "For some students, the PEERS program will be their college experience. For others, it's a stepping stone to an associate's or bachelor's degree," Ford notes.
What makes Ford's approach distinctive is his commitment to authentic inclusion. Students in PEERS aren't isolated—they're integrated into campus life, building relationships with fellow students who serve as allies and mentors. As Ford proudly shares, "A colleague observing a class couldn't identify which students were in the PEERS program. These are just individuals with some learning differences who you run into all the time in our communities."
Beyond PEERS, Ford's Prep Academy gives high school students with disabilities a taste of college life through summer immersion experiences, while his ASSIST lab engages undergraduates and graduates from diverse disciplines in research supporting students with disabilities. The impact ripples outward, influencing how K-12 schools prepare students and changing what families believe is possible.
Discover how one professor's vision is building bridges between communities, challenging assumptions about who belongs in higher education, and creating spaces where all students can discover their potential. This isn't just about access—it's about belonging.
Welcome to On a First Name Basis, a podcast where we dive into the stories behind Boise State scholars. I'm Dr Chris Saunders, but please just call me Chris. I'm a faculty member here at Boise State and I'm excited to share with you some of the amazing stories of my colleagues, their journeys, the challenges they've overcome and the connections they're building right here in our communities. Supported by the Boise State Division of Research and Economic Development, this podcast is all about getting to know the people and their work. Join me as we explore the human side of the innovative blue-turf thinking happening at Boise State. Let's get to know each other more on a first-name basis. On this episode of the podcast, our guest is Dr Jeremy Ford from the College of Education at Boise State University. Welcome to the show, jeremy.
Jeremy:Thank you very much, chris,
Chris:and did I make sure I said Jeremy twice now and I've got to put the emphasis on the E you practice?
Chris:I practice, candice from
Jeremy:Phineas and Ferb
Chris:Okay for Phineas and Ferb fans out there. So a lot of what we're going to talk about today is kind of we'll call it your lifelong mission to help students. Would that be an accurate statement of your lifelong mission?
Jeremy:It sounds very ambitious, but let's go with that. I like it.
Chris:Helping students very general, very broad right, because it's like what kind of students, what age of students? Um, but before we get into that right, one one thing that everyone listening can probably share and and is that we've all been students at one time or another and we might already be tapping into some very we'll call them fond memories, but they might not all be fond memories. They my, my memories always tie into this. The stupid things that I did that maybe at the time I didn't realize were stupid, but then in retrospect we're like oh yeah, that was. But kind of we all do those stupid things and I think, as teachers and educators, part of that realization is that there's a lot of growing up to do. In many ways it's school, all levels of school. That doesn't doesn't end, I. But when you are helping students, right, do you ever find yourself thinking about you know what you were like as a student. So what, what was, what was Jeremy like as a student?
Jeremy:Yeah, I mean, I think one of the easy ways to start talking about that is with the students that I have now and being very um honest with them about I've received every grade that one can receive on a project or a test or an assignment. I've had all of them. It's okay. If maybe this assignment didn't turn out the way that you wanted it to turn out, it is fine. The other thing that I will tell students is that it took me three semesters of college before I figured it out. Only three, only three.
Chris:It took me four years and then when I got to graduate school then I was like, oh, this is what I was doing wrong for the previous four years. So three, I think three semesters is pretty good.
Jeremy:I don't know what you weren't quite getting right, but what I had to learn was going to class and doing the assignments was important, and if you did that, 80% 85% of the job was already done.
Chris:So I baked into me was an intense like I. I didn't. I didn't miss class. I think I missed class in my college career. I think I missed one or two classes and I can't share on this episode what those reasons would be. They were, at the time, I thought, very good reasons, but I just didn't miss class, not to say that I was engaged in class, but I thought that showing up was important and for students listening, showing up is important.
Chris:But also being present is important and the whole doing the work. That was the part I struggled with, because a lot of my classes, especially my chemistry classes so chemistry teachers out there don't do what I'm about to tell you. The homework was, we'll call it optional. It was suggested that you do this, but it wasn't graded and as a student I hadn't gotten to the point where learning hadn't motivated me at points motivated me. So I just didn't do the homework and you can imagine how well the exams went right. So I went to class and I thought, oh, I'm learning things, but since I wasn't practicing those things, I wasn't learning nearly as much as I thought. And that was. That was a big adjustment for me of oh, I have to do these things, even if someone isn't telling me explicitly to do those things. But it's hard for that 18-year-old mind to grasp that.
Jeremy:And that's another thing that I, when I started after my PhD program and I started at Boise State that was one of the things I had to really think through is this when students are definitely still learning and growing as we are all still learning and growing Um, what do those assignments look like in class? What does that feedback look like? Um, how do you support an individual who is, you know, very much still, um, you know, becoming the person that they're going to be for the next couple of decades, um, and that's that takes pausing and realizing. What was I like at 20 and what was I doing and where was the focus of my studies, and how do we make this relevant? Um and connect and um and go from there.
Chris:Well it's. It's tough because I think underneath that and is is motivation right, that intrinsic motivation right, when we have something that we really want to do. I think everyone kind of knows like you, you can do those things, even if they're challenging, right. Whatever kind of fills you up, you're willing to do all those challenges, whether someone is pushing you on or not you pushing yourself. I think those are the things that were the most successful on Um. But that's hard as a teacher to to bring that to bear because you're not inside their, their brain, right.
Jeremy:It is hard as a teacher and um, none of us are purely intrinsically motivated, and external motivation is a fact of life, and I think maybe that's one of the lessons we learn is I got to go do the thing that I don't really like to do, but it's important, not just important to other people, but it's something that is important to me and to my goals. I need to do this less desirable thing. Um, so actually in in uh, special education and school psychology, uh, we will talk a lot about um motivation does come from the teacher. It does come from how we set up um the tasks and and provide incentives and and those kinds of things. Um cause we don't always want to do the thing.
Chris:None of us do and that's hard and and it to me this harkens back to some of the conversations that you and I have had before the show of being dads right, a lot of this is is right now. Right, that that motivation, a lot of that crosses over into being a parent and there are things that we want our kids to do that we know as grownups, roughly speaking, that they should do Something like brushing your teeth. There are real consequences if you don't brush your teeth. But is brushing your teeth fun? Does anyone know it's a thing that you don't want to do.
Chris:Is going to bed always a fun thing? No, but we know that it's good for them and trying to motivate them to want to go to bed beyond just well, I told you so. I told you so rarely, rarely, rarely works. And this is again, both for our children but for our students at all levels of man. My students would just kill it if they just did everything I told them to do. We wouldn't have a profession, we would just have a piece of paper that says do these things and you will know all of these wonderful things, and it just doesn't work that way, yeah, and it doesn't work that way.
Jeremy:It doesn't work that way for our children, it doesn't work that way for students, but it doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way for our children, it doesn't work that way for students, but it doesn't work that way for us either, as individuals, right, like, how many times do I stay up past when I should go to bed because I just don't want to go to bed? How many times do I not do that thing or put off that task because I don't want to do it right now? Those are, those are things that we all have to kind of come up with ways for addressing ourselves, and we all have to see the benefits of doing that and see how things go. And it doesn't go the way we wanted it to, because maybe we didn't do what we needed to or what we thought we should, and also, sometimes we can do all the things and it still doesn't work out.
Chris:And that's part of life too, and I think with that too, which kind of touches into the work that we'll talk about more and more as the episode goes on of. You know, how do we, as educators and communities, build support structures to help guide, guide people towards what success looks like? Knowing all of these champ, these challenges, and knowing that even when we're doing things right, that things right, you'll, you'll have bad days, and how, how robust are those? Are those communities right? You, you can't have a community or a program that falls apart with the first mistake because we were all all flawed human beings. Um, but yeah, tapping into what you know, what excites us?
Chris:I, I, so I play a lot of video games. A lot of my students play a lot of video games and it might right For people who don't like video games, they might go wow, like, look at that. Waste of time, that, like you know. But if you talk to a student who's really into a particular game, right, I mean, e-sports are a thing and the amount of time and effort into study and practice that they bring to bear on some of those things is pretty remarkable and they can accomplish some amazing things because they are intrinsically motivated to do it, or you think people usually have something that they will geek out about and I use the term geek as opposed to nerd, because those are different things, right, but we geek right, I agree.
Chris:As a nerd and a geek about a great number of things, I feel I can use those confidently For you. That thing, if I remember correctly, is the Marvel Universe. Is that?
Jeremy:is that big marvel cinematic universe fan?
Chris:now, now you, you specified cinematic universe, so you were not into the comic books. I was.
Jeremy:I was a kid, okay, um so there are some things that I can recall from from the previous century. Um that that helped me enjoy the current movies and did, did you like?
Chris:so I bring this up, not randomly, but this of I have some friends who are into comic books or graphic novels. Not to offend anyone out there, graphic novels, they are a worthwhile art form. There are some amazing ones out there. I was never into them as a kid, but some of my adult friends. It's almost like a field of study and expertise. Right, it's almost like alternative field of study and expertise. Right, it's almost like alternative histories that people have studied. Did you as a kid? Did you dive deeply, like I did not dive.
Jeremy:Okay, I dove, which is why I can. I can recognize certain things and catch some of the Easter eggs, as they're called, um, but I, I cannot, um, I cannot keep up with some people. It is not one of my areas of expertise.
Chris:Fair enough, but now with the MCU, there's so much content it takes effort to keep up. I give up. I have to admit I kept along with it for a while, but then it just became too much and I just didn't have the time.
Jeremy:I am struggling with the Defenders episodes and Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, and all of that now being canon, I am behind. Okay, I'm trying to catch up. Do you have a lot of catching up to do? I still do. Yeah, I'm making progress, though.
Chris:At least you can think of it as you have things to look forward to. I do, but with that right like part of that is that striking work-life balance right. And again for students this is important of don't take those things that you geek out on and put them aside. Make room for them, but you can't just do those things and again you're back to doing the things that we don't want to do because we have all these other choices of well, I'd rather do this. This is fun, and I agree, sometimes doing those things does sound a lot more fun.
Jeremy:Yeah, and I mean all of them made me think of a couple of things. One is we're better as humans are social beings and we live in these groups and these social groups, and we're better when there are diverse interests being engaged across individuals, and so, just because something isn't your thing, it's great that it's somebody else's thing and that they have their group, their community, their people. The other thing that I thought about is something that I tell students, and it's that life doesn't stop when we're in school, and it doesn't matter Undergraduate, graduate school, like these big milestones or life things happen, and so we have to figure out a way to balance the life things with our educational goals, with our education.
Chris:That's related to our goals and the things that we want to do, and that's that's hard, that right Life life continues to happen and that can really have an impact on student do. And that's that's hard, that right Life life continues to happen and that can really have an impact on student success. I, I, every semester, I have students that just have these major life events happen and and the semester doesn't stop, right and the you know my delivering of content and my supporting students doesn't stop and it can be a real big, real big challenge. Um, I know that you and I have talked about before. When you were right, you moved around a fair amount, so you know what, what does. What is something like that, like when you again, when you think of yourself as a student, I have to think that that that drove a lot of challenges every time you moved.
Jeremy:Yeah, I didn't move around as much as a lot of military kids, but I had two very back-to-back moves, so to speak Living in the community that I had mostly lived in, and then moved in Indiana and then moved out to California for what ended up being 11 months and then moved to Northern Wisconsin, which is where I ended up graduating from high school and going to college.
Jeremy:But that was then sixth, seventh and eighth grade, and so, if everyone wants to pause for a second and remember middle school and what a great time that was, that was hard, that was, that was a challenge to to meet, meet a new group of friends and make connections, and, um, that first move, it went pretty well actually. And then the second move, it didn't go as well and it took most of the year to kind of, you know, feel like you belong and and and things like that. And, um, you know, students, students go through that anytime there's a transition or a change. Uh, it's very clear when you're, uh, an early teenager, um, making those moves across country. But our students do that when they come to campus too, like, even even if you graduated from a local high school and you're at Boise state now, that's a different community, that's a different place, those are different people, and all of that requires figuring out who you are and finding you know that, that, that group of people, that that fit with who you are.
Chris:Yeah, that group of people that fit with who you are.
Chris:Yeah, I remember as a kid growing up in small town, idaho, of being really resistant to moving my dad, my parents split up and my dad wanted me to move with him to the big city and go to a different school.
Chris:And that idea even though and I'll admit right, I didn't particularly junior high, high school, were not great times for me, I don't there's not like socially, that that wasn't a great time to reflect on, but it was more terrifying to have to start over. Agree, of first year college students. That community aspect can really be a make it or break it kind of thing and we have students that come here and when I say diverse students, diverse in terms of where they're at in their life and where they're living and how much they're working and do they have kids, right, and that community building sometimes I still think is is focused kind of on that. You know not to not to say that it's not good to do it because you do this right of that bridging from high school to college. There are other bridges that that that need to be built to help transition people to that.
Jeremy:it's tough, right. There's other communities though, right, so you yourself not just a student player on a poor team in a weak conference. So I could compete with my fellow Division III athletes in the Upper Midwest Athletic Conference, but I was hardly a star like belonging in that Like did it, did it.
Chris:did it anchor you in a way that right Cause this was in college, so you had kind of settled down that moving Was that kind of an anchor for you.
Jeremy:I mean, I think in some ways. So I mentioned, it took three semesters of college for me to figure it out, and part of that, I think, was going to a small school, um, and being a student athlete where, uh, you had to go do the regular grade check thing with professors and give it to the coach and all that kind of thing. Um, that helped me figure it out. Um, and it was helpful to know that there was a group of people and activities that I was going to be doing for most of the school year. There's preconditioning stuff before the season starts and then the season overlaps with most of the school year, and so that thing I I knew what I was going to be doing most, you know, evenings I had practice, and every friday, saturday, we had back-to-back conference games and half the time we were on the road. So, um, that was great. You had structure that there was.
Chris:There was a structure that you weren't, that you weren't responsible for, and I think that, right Like no, this is comes back to this balance. Right Of, and even with kids, right Of of, there's this expressed desire for freedom and for choice, but what I find is that a lot of people want less choice than than they think they do. Right Of of right, that's low key right.
Jeremy:Yes, yeah, than they think they do right. That's Loki, right.
Chris:Yes, yeah, right, do you want? We're going to be making Marvel references now. Loki, by the way, is a fantastic show, right, but that structure is comforting and I think that that high school to college transition can be tough because the structures are very, very different.
Jeremy:Yeah, and I think you're right about the structure in that it helped me. It was one of the things that helped me. Who had some learning gaps for moving around? Um, like I did during during those middle school years? Uh, who, maybe not, maybe who wasn't always the best student in high school, and so again, there were some. There were just these learning gaps. The structure helped. I remember very clearly one day in particular, because this was a common thing, but I left my dorm room in Finanga Hall and walked across campus to practice and before I got off the second floor where I lived, a group of kind of friends and acquaintances and some people I didn't know. They were all hanging out and having a good time in the dorm. I went to practice. I came back four hours later and they're all still hanging out doing the, doing the stuff and I'm like I just had to go do all those things and and I like your point, chris, about the structure was really helpful for me. Other people need different things.
Jeremy:Um, and one of the struggles I had as a student athlete was, you know, I love, I loved the game and I was. You know, I tell people like I gave basketball the blood, sweat and the tears, like I gave it everything. I played till nobody wanted me to play anymore, like it's my game. But I had other interests as well and I didn't always explore those other interests because I I felt like I had to stay in this one, this one community in this one place. Um, and so I think that college in particular, and and your late teens through your mid twenties in particular, is this time where you get to explore different things and different interests and and figure out where you want to be spending your time and where you want to give your your you know your your interests to. Um, that's just real fun time for that.
Chris:And I I that really resonates with the things that I talk about with with my students of. I do think there's this pressure and I remember feeling this as a 17, 18 year old of right With my guidance counselor and high school um right Of picking a career and picking a path and knowing what you want to do. And when I think back, I'm like there are very few people of that age that are well equipped to know, to know what they want to do, or even they think they know what they want to do, but there's so many things that they didn't don't know exist or that they didn't explore. And and I do wish and this is probably my liberal arts background, talking here of I really wish that early on students had more freedom to dabble I will say low risk classes that are dabbling right Of let's learn something about this, not because it's for your career, but it might be something that's really cool to you or sparks an interest or hobby, right, like we don't all have to have careers, we can have hobbies, we can have things that we are not experts at, but we really, really like to do right. For me I did in this last year.
Chris:I've gotten back to playing live music, and that was music, was a big part of when I was a kid. But then I kind of felt like I had to choose this other career path. And now I'm coming back to it, decades later, and I love it. I'm not the best, but I love playing live music. I love that, that process, but I'm not. I'm not a career musician and I I don't want, I don't want to be, but but I love it. Right, like, do you still play basketball, right?
Chris:Do you get to now?
Chris:play basketball for fun instead of the four hours of blood, sweat and tears.
Jeremy:It's very different now. You know I'll go and I'll play. You know I'll shoot buckets with my kids and play, and I always like to joke. I don't. I don't run, jump or play defense anymore. I earned the right not to, but if I'm I will. I will give my children a shout out. Uh, my oldest has beaten me at one-on-one. Uh, the goal was to not lose before I was 40 and I lost a couple of weeks into my 39th birthday. Uh, my 12, almost 13 year old is a very solid player and it's now beaten me three times. Um, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's part of life.
Chris:Right, it's the passing of the torch, it's all all those things it growing up, my, my mom was the basketball player and I was never we'll. We'll say in my youth, my, my body didn't want to do athletics very well I tried.
Chris:I, I did try, but my mom super competitive like free throws like her. Her knee didn't allow her to move around very much but she could stand there that free throw line and smoke all of us at how many in a row we should get. I bet you she still could, and that knee hasn't gotten any better, but I, I pretty much guarantee you that she would still sink more free throws.
Jeremy:Chris's mom, I like my chances at the free throw line Challenge.
Chris:I will have to let. Let let her know she might have to start. Man, I have to start practicing. So first kind of career track was school psychologist. You are a nationally certified school psychologist.
Jeremy:That is correct.
Chris:Where along the way did you kind of say I want to do this, this is this, is I resist the urge calling, but what was what? What sparked your interest about that and how did you get into that as?
Jeremy:a. I think, uh, one of the things you just said, Chris, that I was part of this was, um, like you, I went to a small liberal arts college and that that allowed me to explore different things and different interests, and I think it's incredibly important. Um, I balanced that a lot with, um, you know, career exploration, and we'll talk a little bit about how I help individuals with disabilities with some of that stuff. Um, but when we, when we talk career exploration of that stuff, but when we talk career exploration, I always think none of it can be about 17, 18, 25, thinking that this is what, the next thing, it's just about the process of exploration, because we will circle back and want to engage in that process again when there's another thing that we're interested in.
Jeremy:No one when I was 17, 18 years old no, no one would have thought I would be a college professor. That was not on anyone's radar, probably especially mine, um, and yet here we are, um, so when I I uh went to college, um, my mother was a school teacher third, fourth grade for for many, many years, retired, and um, I thought I maybe wanted to be a teacher, and I quickly realized that the idea of being in one classroom for six, seven, eight hours a day. I was like that's, that's not gonna, that's not gonna work for me, um, but I do think education is really important. I could already see how it was becoming important, um, while I was in college and, um, I wanted to to work in in that space, um, and so I actually took a year off after I graduated and decided if I wanted to be a school counselor or a school psychologist, because, those are different, different professions, he's suddenly telling me what I said earlier.
Chris:He's giving me a look that you can't all see, but I respect that, so okay. So educate me. What is? What is the? What is?
Jeremy:the difference.
Chris:And now if now I've offended my school counselor, friends who, or maybe their school psychologist, and now I realize that I don't know the difference.
Jeremy:I don't think you've offended anyone, because we're used to this and most people do know who their school counselor was from school. School psychologists tend to have multiple buildings that they're working in, maybe in the same district, maybe across districts. They are a little bit more involved with special education, but they are also pupil services providers, just like school counselors. Many school psychologists are trained in and do provide counseling and counseling services in a school setting. But the school psychologists are also the ones who tend to be described as the assessment experts, the testing people IQ tests or school psychologists, not the person you come to talk to about your problems, absolutely can be the person that you come to talk about your problems.
Jeremy:And school counselors, school psychologists and school social works can all fill in those roles. It kind of depends on what people's personal professional interests are and how they meet the needs of the school that they're in.
Chris:And so from there you decided, so you worked as a school psychologist for four years working in schools in Iowa as a school psychologist and then what was the impetus to to do more, to basically, as you say, re explore your own school Right and I joke with people that I've just have stayed in school for and that's what I, that's what Right and I joke with people that I've just have stayed in school for, and that's what I, that's what I like, and I think you'll find, with a lot of academics that we just like being in school for whatever wild reason that is, I have gone to or worked in a school every year since 1987.
Chris:I'm I'm just not going to say what I was doing in 1987. Cause I'll make Jeremy feel bad.
Jeremy:No, it's fine. 1987 gets further and further away, that is for sure. Yeah, I forgot the question, chris.
Chris:So we were. This is what happens when 1987.
Chris:Was that far away?
Jeremy:You're not wrong
Chris:I know it gets tough, um the the going back to school. So you're a school psychologist. Now you're going to graduate school. You're going back for more school because you just can't get enough.
Jeremy:Yeah, there's there's, there's a couple of of parts to that story. So one is um, I had decided that I wanted to to get my PhD and I wasn't exactly sure what that meant. As a school psychologist, I was involved in several area and statewide projects. Like I got to do the kind of the grunt work kinds of stuff, right, and I was like seeing all of these things and I was very excited about it. I'm like I really want to do the bigger picture when it comes to assessment or professional development or technical assistance or whatever. Like I want to do something like that. And so I kind of started to explore what that could look like. Um and uh, you know, I had two kids under the age of three at the time when I started to kind of look at the stuff and and, and another kid on the way and uh, I got a flyer at work and I was described but I was as a itinerant school psychologist.
Jeremy:My my fellow school psychs will recognize this. I was in my office slash conference room, slash English learner language learner room uh, very multi-purposed, and I got a flyer um from the university of Iowa, bill Therrien and John Hoss, and um I recognized John Hoss at the time as a school psychologist and quickly got to learn uh who Bill was. And um the flyer was about an opportunity for uh to earn your PhD at the university of Iowa and special education um to have a some some grant funding from the federal government was a uh a grant funded project and I was like well, I, I think I'm in.
Jeremy:And so I I emailed, uh, john, cause I can I recognize his name. And I'm like, hey, I'm school psychologist, can I, can I do this program? And John emails me back. He's like, well, I recognize his name. And I'm like, hey, I'm school psychologist, can I, can I do this program? And John emails me back. He's like, well, I'm a school psychologist too, and I did the program. Like this I'm like, john, I know, I know who you are.
Jeremy:Um, so we set up a time to to talk on the phone about the program. And, uh, less than a week later, I think I was emailing him at three o'clock in the morning, Cause my third son was going to be born and I'm like I can't talk to you later today. Uh, so I think I talked the next day or the day after from the hospital and, um, you know, it just seemed like, uh, um, the right next thing to do. I'm a big believer in the right next thing.
Jeremy:And, um, I should back up a little bit and just say that one of the things that interested me in that program was I was spending time working in schools and I didn't know all the things I needed to know to help the students and the families that I was working with and I needed to. I needed to know more to help. I still don't know everything I need to know to help students and families. Uh, that was one of the things I had to learn, but, um, that was, that was my motivation for for going back and getting my PhD and, um, I wasn't 100% sure the entire time that that professor was throughout I was going to to go, but it was definitely always one I was considering and that's how.
Chris:That's how things went cool, and now you're here and now I'm here right this it always, sounds it always it always sounds like it happens so so quickly. Right, we just go through this. And then you start to think back and you're just like there was.
Chris:There was so much stuff and you're talking about life stuff too. You, you're, you're, you're, brave. I had, I had fellow graduate students who had kids during graduate school and I I made the conscious decision of like I don't know if I could do that, like that's, that's, that's all. That's a lot Like I do not know how that will stop.
Jeremy:I really, the first year of my doc program I was commuting an hour and a half each way Cause it happened. It happened so suddenly. I actually already signed my contract to go back to work as a school psychologist and had to get out of that Um, which which my supervisors, everyone was understanding. That was okay, um, but there wasn't really time to like do a move. So for that first year I commuted an hour and a half each way, three, four days a week and I had a flat tire one day after classes and had to walk down. The tire was rusted on.
Jeremy:I couldn't get it off, and so I had to walk downtown and got this really expensive hotel room because it was the only hotel in the area and then went to one of my stats classes the next morning like covered in grease from trying to change the tire, and then got the car towed to the place and like when I tell students, like life doesn't end, like life doesn't end.
Chris:All these things happen and you still just keep trying to make progress, the fact that we get anything accomplished, sometimes just right, it, just it floors me when you, when, when you think, when you, when you think back us the funding to bring two groups of students to campus every summer.
Jeremy:Usually that group is about 10 students individuals with disabilities, between the ages of 15 and 21. And we put them through college in five days. I kind of say it's about a week and a half of college Crash course of college. It's a crash course, it's everything. We put together some courses. One is a job exploration course, another is a financial literacy course that's taught by Boise State students here in our accounting program, and we also do about a week and a half of sociology.
Jeremy:And we don't just do the academic stuff, right, there's, there's the, the career exploration stuff, there's the uh, community social things, um, we spend some time in the game center and the rec center, but we also come to the library and educational access center and the writing center and we just connect students to um these resources and we we use the phrase mirroring what what college looks like, um, so that people have more information, more data to make a decision. Is this the right fit for me? Is this not the right fit for me? We don't, we don't sell Boise state.
Jeremy:We do have students, um who have gone to prep academy and then gone to Boise state Um, and that's kind of cool too, because if they're going to be here in the fall, we can kind of set them up with a couple of things and whatnot, um, but we're just trying to help people, um, make make a decision on what they're interested in. Uh, it's, it's individuals with a wide range of disabilities and, um, we're talking about the peers program in a little bit. Some of our students are interested in in things like inclusive post-secondary education. Some of our students come to the honors college at Boise state or or are pre-engineering majors and you know it's, it's a fun, it's my favorite time of the year and we just get to be on campus with, with those students that we bring on and Boise state students that we hire as mentors, and just have a good time.
Chris:So how big again?
Chris:did you say that cohort of students is that come in,
Jeremy:yeah it's usually two groups of 10 students and I keep telling my friends at Voc Rehab that we're ready for a third week. Let's do that and have more students on campus. But, like I said, it's my favorite time of the year. It's just a really fun, a really fun time.
Chris:And and who are your community partners in this? Are you partnering with schools and stuff like what, who?
Chris:what's the driver to get those, those students in, into, into this
Jeremy:, yeah, so the the the most important thing is that students need to be a customer of Idaho's division of vocational rehabilitation. Need to be a customer of.
Jeremy:Idaho's division of vocational rehabilitation. Now voc rehab is in schools and their, their work. They, schools have a voc rehab counselor and so there's, if, if an individual is interested, tell your teacher, have the teacher to the voc rehab counselor, tell the voc rehab counselor if you know that individual. But we're, we're, we're, let's see. Historically we've had students from Boise, nampa, caldwell, but also up north in Coeur d'Alene and out east in Pocatello. So it's local, but it's also it's for any student across the state.
Chris:Okay, and then your next one is PEERS, and you mentioned you had alluded to two peers, so acronym. What does peers stand for?
Jeremy:Peers is providing exceptional education and raising standards and it is a two-year program here at Boise State where students with intellectual and developmental disabilities earn a certificate in community and career readiness studies. That certificate is approved by Boise state, it's approved by the Idaho state department of our state board of education and we're also recognized by the U S department of education as a comprehensive transition program. That's awesome.
Chris:Are there lots of programs like this across the country, Like so, something that is federally and state recognized? There's lots.
Jeremy:Those checklists are usually pretty big for for to satisfy, satisfy those things they have been increasing and, um, if I would have gotten to that manuscript revision yesterday, I would have had literally the exact number. Um, but I didn't, and so, uh, it is still less than 5% of colleges and universities in the U? S and Canada that have a program like the peers program. We're still very much in the beginning. We had our first four graduates last, last spring, but our closest programs are up at Washington state and Utah state, and we are the only comprehensive transition program in the state of Idaho, and these are.
Chris:Are these Boise State students that enroll in this like as a part of their degree program?
Jeremy:This is their degree program, there is their degree program, so for most students who enroll in a program like PEERS, it will be their college experience. Okay, they're two, they're three, some programs are four years long. I would say that some of our students will complete the peers program and go on to earn an associate or a bachelor's degree. Some of our students will do that. They just need a little bit more experience and time and development. Right, for some students, again, the peers program, that two-year certificate, will be their college experience.
Chris:And do you get some now overlap with prep and peers. Have you seen? Like that's that, as a teacher, to all the teachers that I think can relate to this. Being able to see the arc of development of a student is a is a highly satisfying thing, because you get to see them at different points and they may not realize just how much they've grown, but we can see that. So have you had by your face? I'm assuming that, yes, this has happened, that it was exceptionally satisfying.
Jeremy:We have had three, um three students in the peers program who also attended prep academy Yep, and it is. It's fun, because sometimes you don't see that student for a couple, two, three years. Even right, If they went to prep academy when they were 16 and they applied to the peers program at 20, like that's a lot of growth. So it is. It's a lot of fun to see that.
Chris:And so how I always. I would imagine that some people will right wonder so how integrated is it to the rest of the Boise State campus? I think you don't want to other a community, especially. There's enough of that. That naturally happens. How do you make it all work? How do you interweave that? Yeah Well.
Jeremy:I'll start with an example that, uh, that kind of shows how it, how that perception can, can be realized. A colleague and my we're doing a faculty evaluation for, for a junior faculty member and two students in the peers program were in the class and my, my, uh colleague, who was doing the the the observation with me, had no idea who the two, who the two students were. These are just individuals with some learning differences, who you run into these people all the time, whether it's in the classroom or at the grocery store or walking on the green belt. These people are in our communities.
Jeremy:The peers program do take a couple of program specific classes in their first semester just to kind of get used to college and get accumulated and keep them housed together a little bit more. But they also take another class somewhere across campus as an elective that semester as well. The following semester in their second semester in the program they take a UF 100 class and they have to. They have to pass that class. Um, just like any other first year student at Boise state, um would do some job, practicum things, job, uh, um, work experience types of things as well and um kind of finish things off with a portfolio accumulating. This is what we did, but students take um that UF 100 class and five electives across campus that are just with other Boise State students.
Chris:That's awesome and I think now to me the acronym is starting to make to crystallize right of you are setting those standards high for individuals that may, whether they think that or others have thought about of that they cannot achieve the same level for whatever, for whatever reason, which is which is really unfortunate that that right, that that challenge is, is something but you're not interested right in lowering the bar. You're interested in helping them achieve the same bar that that, that ever that everybody else Right, right.
Jeremy:So college has been called a normative pathway for, for, for, for young people. It doesn't mean that college is for everyone. I'm a firm believer that college isn't for everyone. But for anyone who is interested in college, wants to do the work, wants to learn the lessons that you and I talked about having to learn, then that should be an available option and that's something that the PEERS program strives to do for right now, kind of our Treasure Valley local community, but hopefully across the state and the region as well.
Chris:Now the acronym itself, right, makes me think of right, like, and I feel like again by the smile, that this is intentional, right of that, a lot of that learning is through association with their peers. Right, students can have it and sometimes a bigger effect on other students than than their teachers. Right, you know, we peer pressure Pressure doesn't have to be a bad thing, that's correct Right Again, community building.
Chris:Do you see that happen a lot with in this group? I know it's still early, but but are those the things that you're seeing? No, absolutely.
Jeremy:I'll give a shout out to our Boise state students and so many of you are taking these full class loads and working. You know a lot of hours and y'all are very, very busy. Um, but we have had students uh collaborate with us in the peers program and we'll talk about that a little bit with the assist lab where, um, they are, you know, doing activities together and there's academic coaching, there's job coaching, but there's just the hanging out on the movie, hanging out in the dorms watching, watching movies and playing pool. Um, and those relationships do do develop and, uh, the manuscript revisions I was just talking about, uh, that's, that was an example of us, you know, exploring uh some of our teacher education candidates and supporting students in the peers program and the relationships that developed and the experiences that they had.
Jeremy:Because peer mentorship isn't just about the quote unquote mentees, it's about we call them allies in the peers program. It's about the other students too and, as teacher education candidates, learning. These are the kinds of students who are going to be in my classroom, that I'm going to be supporting. What are those standards going to look like for them, and do I think college is a possibility for this student, when maybe they are experiencing some real learning challenges in second grade, but that doesn't mean in 10 years we're not in a totally different place. And what is my role right now as a second grade teacher? And helping moving that forward so that all these options can possibly be available to that student later.
Chris:It is something that, as a teacher, I, the longer I've taught, the more acutely I am aware of how much I don't know about my students. That are really impactful things on their learning. Now, some students share very openly with what's going on and I always appreciate that. But I will admit, sometimes I feel ill-equipped. Right, I do not have that level of training. I do what I can and there are resources on campus to do that, and sometimes that's all you can do is is connect, get them connected. But but now you're talking about, right, these downstream impacts of your T, your, your teaching, future teachers, to address these things very, very early. That it right. You've, you've dropped that proverbial pebble in the pond and these ripples, right, and do you feel like now can I see mid-career or do?
Jeremy:you feel like I like to say late.
Jeremy:Early career is what I prefer,
Chris:I, I it's a weird, it's a it's a weird thing to start to, to put that timeline. But do you feel like now, those ripples, that things that you've set in motion, right, nothing in academia happens fast. Are those ripples getting bigger and overlapping and and and amplifying each other? Are we, are you reaching a critical?
Chris:critical point
Jeremy:. I do think we've reached a critical juncture, um with the pro, with a program like peers, where, where we um, we're in a position to do some really great things for for the state If we can pull things together and and and um address the needs that are there. Uh, I, I am optimistic that that idea that you're talking about right, that as academics we talk about wanting to see the impact of our work, that that we're making progress towards that Um with with uh to the peers program we have um, we'll have another cohort next year. I have interviews set up uh for a couple of weeks from now. Um we'll have I'm anticipating having another solid cohort of five, six, seven students and um as, as the community continues to learn, uh what is needed for students to be ready to make that leap into college, that has a ripple effect back down to what are the things we need to be doing in high school and middle school and in the transition process to support students being ready to be college students. And so I'd like to think that this will kind of go both ways, um and so I, I I'd like to think that that this will kind of go both ways.
Jeremy:We'll have teachers who are aware of things, uh, at those early grades and what can be possibilities for their students, and it can relate that to family. So families know that it's a possibility for their students and then also kind of working down, as high schools and and and junior highs are, are helping those students be ready for again their goals, whatever those those goals are. Um, I goals, whatever those those goals are, I was to tell families all the time. You know, I got a phone call from a parent and said that the number one thing that will make someone successful in the peers program is that the student wants to go to college. It's not a thing that mom or dad or teacher want. The student wants to go to college. That's the number one, most important thing.
Chris:The biggest, the biggest driver and and and, like you said, it's important that there are pathways to whatever that student, that that person's goal is right, and it may not be four years of traditional college and that is a a okay, absolutely have. Maybe this is too far off field just because you're getting this started, but I would imagine you've thought about it. But is there any right like this supports this particular pathway? But have there's been given thought to, let's say, you know recently in the news, right, idaho is really trying to shore up pathways to form, vocational schools, trade schools, those kind of things. What about those options for some of those those students, right does?
Jeremy:yeah, yeah, no. I think I. The way that I think about that, is kind of two, two main thoughts. One is not being everything to everyone, right, and so the peers program is about a college education Like that is that is an option that is not otherwise available in in in our community, and that is what that does.
Jeremy:Prep Academy is a good example of something that wants to collaborate with those people and take these students and say, hey, college is one option, but when we're talking about what you want to do after high school, there are these other options too, right? I do firmly believe that most people need some type of education after high school, right, and so prep academy, post-secondary education, that can look like a lot of different things. It's just after high school, so let's explore what those things look like. Let's have conversations with, again, voc rehab, but we can have conversations with the Department of Labor, with career and technical education, like there are some really good options. How do we make the right connections to people so they can do the things that they're interested in doing?
Chris:And I think that's really important when I think about education broadly right, not just college education, but education broadly of. These are people coming in from the community and local communities, and any sort of good education then prepares them to come back and contribute to those communities, whether it's the same community or or a similar community. To me that is central, central to the mission, and that's not just because Boise state likes to talk about that right Of of serving rural Idaho, for example, or whatnot, but I think that it's really important that that transformation then goes on to for change and and and again, the the risk, when you talk scholarship in academics, with academics is sometimes, sometimes our work and and it's okay that it is sometimes is for that gaining of knowledge. But, but this and many people I I talk I think the most important thing is when it makes a real impact, and you're talking about real impacts in people's lives. Right, you talked about the manuscript, but my guess is the manuscript isn't the fun part to write, the fun part is seeing these people be successful, right.
Chris:And you can't score that, you can't right it's, it's. You can't quantify that, but it it, it's there, it's real, it's. It's how your work and the work of your students make make a difference.
Jeremy:Well, you said it's, it's, it's earlier you said it's. It's kind of interesting to look back on things and be like, oh, that took, that was a lot, but it just kind of happened quickly, Right, and so, um, and I can, I can others obtain something similar or that meets their needs and their interests, matches their interests, so that they can grow, and that this is how we develop. And I, you know, we, we both went to small liberal art uh colleges, uh, as undergrads and I, I love that time in my life. Um, but outside of those four years, I'm a public education kid and I think the mission of a state university like Boise state is incredibly important in supporting our community and our state, um, and those students and families. It's those ways of. It's really easy to think.
Chris:I'm just this tiny little cog and I am, but there can be an amplifying effect. Right, there's one of us, but maybe we make an impact on three students and those three students go on to impact other right. It's the downstream effects, many of which we will never see, right, but the one or two that you do see. I don't know about you, but that, that to me is okay. This is this is why, this is why I do this. This is why I put in the time to, to, to do better for those. The why is?
Jeremy:the wise students, you know, and I, I, I, I'm a, I'm a, and I'll say faculty, being people too, and being able to find that work-life balance and all those things that we need as humans, and our faults.
Chris:Right, absolutely.
Jeremy:But you show up to help your students learn and grow and find out what they're interested in like we've been talking about that in a lot of ways is the motivation, and it's definitely more fun than manuscript revisions.
Chris:Now, speaking of fun and speaking of students, the last thing that we're going to talk about is your, uh, the assist lab. So another acronym right which is associated with another, the VIP, correct Right. So VIP is vertically integrated. Is it project? It is project, yep.
Jeremy:And what is ASSIST then? Yeah, so the ASSIST lab is the aiding student success by improving secondary transition. It is kind of intellectually how I conceptualize all my different areas of scholarship, and so I can put prep academy in there and the peers program in there and some other things in there. Um, but as a as a VIP course, undergraduate and graduate students are able to register for one or two credits and we engage in different research projects, and so traditionally I have had students kind of explore either peer mentorship in programs like peers or something else that they are interested in, and I help, you know, help them with the resources and identifying the research that helps them learn about the things that they're. Whatever that is related to supporting, to supporting students, uh, with disabilities and and and life after high school, and it can be a job coaching to uh sex education and healthy relationships. Um, to use of social media to promote uh programs like peers. Um, and that's been really fun.
Jeremy:Right now I'm working with a group of undergraduate students, including one student in the PEERS program as well as a graduate student, on a pretty comprehensive program evaluation of Prep Academy, and so we're working on the tools for all of that and how that's going to look like and we'll collect some data over the summer and then in the fall that graduate student is going to be engaged in their capstone project where we really take a look at things, and it's just a really fun way again to work with students and support students who are interested in gaining a research experience, and I've worked with students in education but also students in psychology, social work, health sciences. I've now written multiple letters of reference to med school, which is not something I ever thought I would do, but I really think that any student who is interested in learning about research in kind of the education social sciences can get a good experience that is matched with the things you're interested in doing yourself after Boise State.
Chris:Yeah, and VIPs are you can correct me if I'm wrong. You have more institutional memory than I do are still relatively new in the ecosystem.
Jeremy:I would say relatively new, relatively new.
Chris:They're not brand new, but they're relatively new and not all faculty have them.
Jeremy:Longer than five years, less than 10.
Chris:Yeah, so in academia it's still fine in its legs.
Chris:But to help orient folks that may not understand, these are courses that students sign up for and they are engaged in research at an undergraduate level. But the thing that I think is different with VIPs is that vertically integrated of it is an overlapping of different lenses. Like you said, you're not just getting students from your department. Your majors, you're getting right. It's not limited to a particular major right. Majors, you're getting right. It's not limited to a particular major right. You're you've got pre-med students that are engaging in this. That's kind of outside of where you would find most traditional pre-med students. You talk about social, social media, right. You've got communicate, probably communications majors or or people that have an interest of that of right. Yeah, you, it's the liberal arts thing right of that the silos.
Chris:the silos are should only be there for ease of labeling things, but really we are at our best as human beings when we are the melting pot, when we are the overlapping of skills and interest and cause not all. One person can be the expert in all things, right, and so my guess is they learn collaborative skills and research, which again, there aren't too many lone wolf researchers out there that make a big name.
Jeremy:Not in my field.
Chris:No, it's done collaboratively, which has its own challenges, true, and you ask any student if they like group work and they think they like group work, until they're asked to do it in an unstructured way and they're like this is the worst, right People? People are such a pain to work with and we are sometimes people but have their faults. Yes, but yeah. So these VIP courses, all the VIPs that I'm, that I'm familiar with. I love the diversity of the students and the students, see, right, and I don't like using the, the whole. You know, when you get into the real world, because college and academia is very much the real world that is different than many career paths but they get a sense of the application, of what they, of what they learned, that college is a lot of content, content, but that content is not what I hope that my students retain largely, it's how to deal with the content, how to problem solve, how to think of their ideas. Like, do you see? Like is the VIP now kind of the main driver for your scholarship?
Jeremy:I could see headed that way. So I have some ideas, because it I said earlier, I said prop academy is my favorite time of the year, but this, this VIP thing, and when we have undergraduate researchers presenting what they've learned over the semester and again walking around the event and seeing what the other students and VIPs have done, that that is a close second. It's really fun. College has a lot of content, but what are you going to do with it? Right, you can. You can go to lots of different places to get an education. Um, wherever you go, what are you going to do with it? What's what it's? It's the. So what? Question? Right, like, you know some things. So what, what, what are?
Chris:you going to do with it? Yeah, and and again, I think a reminder is that what I tell students when they're like, oh, I wish I didn't have to take this class, it has nothing to do with my career, and I always then ask the question of, does it have to? Right, are the only things that you know and enjoy in life, the things that have to do with your career, and most, right, most people would say, no, right, there's nothing, something. So, yeah, you can just know things to, to have it be interesting. And I don't think that this is an unfamiliar thing to people, because I well, we'll, we'll use my dad as an example, and and I I won't say that he speaks for an entire generation, but my dad loves tiktok and I found a number of people from his generation that really dig TikTok. I've, for the record, I don't have TikTok, I like it is, but he will share with me the things that he learns, or the things that he's bought, because he's learned of something cool from that and that has nothing to do with his career, right? So the information age has allowed us to be interested in a great many things, which pros and cons to being flooded with that, but again, I think it is important.
Chris:Right, a class doesn't have to be career-based for you to get something out of it. Right, we, we have to be able to have carry conversations about, not just a group. If all I could talk about with people was chemistry, my only, my only friends would be would be chemist and it would be like back in graduate school. In graduate school you're kind of immersed in your field and I remember bringing my partner Eileen to a get-together and it was all a bunch of graduate chemists and suddenly we would start talking chemistry and we didn't even realize we were talking chemist speak. We just thought that everybody speaks in that way and she was like I don't, I don't, I don't get it. I, you know it was, but but that's to me. That is an example of when you meet someone in the grocery store and you want to carry a conversation. Are you going to lead with your career expertise? Right?
Jeremy:And that that's. That's again. That's us as humans, in these social groups, um, connecting with one another. Uh, you have to connect with people on a wide range of of things, and it doesn't have to be all the things, um, but if you want to be a well-rounded person who can, you know, engage with people and and meet new people and make connections, um then yeah, you need to.
Chris:And, and and are those are those part of the skills that you're teaching these students, like in in it right Right. Is this are? Are those the things that are going to help drive them to be successful?
Jeremy:I think those are, and those are what we call soft skills, right, like sometimes, again, for, for students with disabilities and in particular, some with more um, significant support needs, uh, you do explicitly teach some of those things, right, that you're hoping to generalize, um, but for most of us, uh, it's just exposure and practice, right? And so if, if, if, you can create the conditions in which students are getting together to problem solve, engage in learning activities, that's when those skills get a chance to grow and develop.
Chris:And you don't even have to tell them that you're doing it right.
Chris:It's the learning that you know is happening but they're not aware of it and they will take those things with them. And soft skills always bothers me because it makes it and I don't know, maybe this is just my word associate. It's an issue with me of the soft skills make bothers me because it makes it and I don't know, maybe this is just my word associate is an issue with me of the soft skills make them sound that they're not important. They're so important to success, absolutely In a great many of things, not just, not just in school, but every, everything else, of how you interact with, with human beings.
Jeremy:No one. No one cares about what you know until they know that you care human beings that are no one no one cares about what you know until they know that you care.
Chris:Everything that you're talking about in your scholarship seems again to come back to community, how human beings interact and how those interactions drive the success of of us as individuals and as us of a community, absolutely, um well, I really appreciate you taking the time this is fun and absolutely fun.
Chris:I have I I always end these episodes in my brain. I've got 50 more questions of really cool stuff, one of which being, if you want to ever collaborate with chemistry classes, and that first semester experience for students. I would love to talk about it because most of my students are in that first semester and I would love to see if there was a place that we could join, join forces for good I I can come up with some ideas because, I need more.
Jeremy:I need more work.
Chris:I need more work than all of my friends.
Jeremy:The students always have the best ideas and we just got to get them in the same room.
Chris:They'll come up with great stuff and and it's also convincing students that they do have wonderful ideas. Right and they do y'all do. Yes, absolutely. If you don't, if you think you have a good idea and you're not sure it's, it's probably a good good idea. And remember your, your, your teachers, whatever level you are, are human beings, too full of faults and and we don't have all the best ideas. But we do have the best intentions for you and we do want you to be successful. I like that, I agree.
Chris:I think we should leave on that note of not that a bunch of students are listening to this, although I might now say you need to listen to this episode and report back to me of the nice, the wonderful things that we said. So we'll see Could be extra credit. You said motivation, carrot. Right, there you go. External motivation, all right. Well, thank you very much, jeremy and um, I appreciate your time.
Jeremy:No, this was great. Thanks, chris.
Chris:If you'd like to learn more about any of the topics discussed on today's show, please visit boisestateedu slash research. I want to give a special thanks to Albertson's Library on the campus of Boise State for the recording space. The theme music for this show was composed and engineered by Boise State graduates Alan Scriven and Taylor Ross. Thanks again for listening.